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Interview

Kríza v srdci EÚ: Flámsko vs. Valónsko

Napísal: Lucia BOLEDOVIČOVÁ

Piatok, 24.októbra 2008 - 19:03 hod.

Členka Project ARES Lucia Boledovičová uskutočnila náš prvý rozhovor s Jensom Verlindenom. Jens je Flámom a občanom Belgicka a študuje na Fakulte politických a sociálnych vied na univerzite v Ghente. S Luciou sa zoznámil tento rok na odbornom študentskom seminári v Nemecku, ktorý sa konal k téme európskeho občianstva. Jens Lucii ochotne odpovedal na jej otázky ohľadom politického a etnického napätia v Belgicku medzi Flámami a Válonmi.

Pre lepšie pochopenie celého kontextu belgickej krízy uvádzame pred samotným rozhovorom zopár faktov.

Belgické kráľovstvo vzniklo v roku 1830 odtrhnutím sa od Holandska. Germánskych Flámov a románskych Valónov spájal odpor voči katolicizmu a odpor voči cudzej nadvláde. Monarchiu ovládol francúzsky živel, kultúrne pokročilý, politicky aktívnejší a ťažiaci z industrializovaného Valónska.

Flámovia však začali Valónov dobiehať a v poslednom polstoročí sa karta obrátila. Flámsko na čele s Antverpami sa stali centrom vedeckotechnického pokroku. V súčasnosti zaisťuje asi 2/3 belgického HDP. Rastúca populačná prevaha Flámov sa logicky odrazila aj v parlamente, ktorý následne zrovnoprávnil germánsku časť obyvateľstva. Tieto zmeny posilňovali sebavedomie Flámov, roztrpčovali Valónov a na oboch stranách podnecovali vlny nacionalizmu. Jeho prejavy netlmila ani úprava hraníc provincií podľa jazykového kritéria a vymedzenie štyroch lingvistických zón (1963).

V roku 1993 bola krajina federalizovaná na tri kultúrno-jazykové spoločenstvá (frankofónne, flámske a nemeckojazyčné). Belgicko sa okrem toho člení na 10 provincií s 589 samosprávnymi obcami pričom v krajine pôsobí šesť vlád a parlamentov (orgány federálne, flámske, valónske, bruselské, francúzskeho spoločenstva a nemecko-jazyčné komunity.

Napätie sa v krajine vystupňovalo v roku 2005 keď flámski prominenti zverejnili „Manifest za samostatné Flámsko v Európe“, v ktorom požadujú rozdelenie štátu podľa vzoru Československa. Vzniknúť by malo Flámsko a Válónsko, pričom Brusel by vzhľadom na svoju funkciu v EÚ dostal zvláštny štatút. Autori manifestu poukazujú najmä na hospodárske disproporcie v Belgicku a nesúhlasom väčšiny Flámov dotovať zaostávajúce Valónsko. (zdroj: Šlachta M.: Ohniska napětí ve světě, str. 10-12)

Interview s Jensom Verlindenom:

Jens VERLINDEN

1. Why there was a problem with creating „orange-blue“ coalition of political parties last year? This coalition had the most potential in creation of new federal government in Belgium.

The Flemish Christian democrats (CD&V) did not want to step into a government without solving some issues about giving more responsabilities to the Flemish regional government.

The leader of the Wallonian Christian democrat party (cdH), Joëlle Milquet, opposed the Flemish demands. Milquet insisted on making a socio-economic agreement, because this would be more important for the people. Due to her strict position, she received the name madame non ('miss no!' in French).

2. Flemish nationalists, who are allies of flemish of Christian-democratic party of Prime Minister Yves Leterme, recently annouced, that they have lost trust in coalition and will not support coalition any more.
What´s caused, that they adopted this position?

The Flemish nationalist party (NV-A) felt that they cannot fulfill the promises they made during the last elections. So, they decided to break from the coalition and from the alliance with CD&V.

I assume that the hidden agenda is this one: with the new elections in sight (in 2009), it is a good thing that they will go to the elections with an independent party again. Whereas the CD&V does not seem thrustworthy anymore, the NV-A can go to the elections with a very good image. This will attract many Flemish nationalist voters.

3. People are still talking about the separation of country. Even, as example they mention silent split of Czechoslovakia.
Do you think that these autonomistic ideas in Belgium can once become a reality?

After the last elections, many people started to discuss about the separation of Belgium. I think that many people start to realize that Belgium started as a surrealistic construction in 1830 (as a buffer state between France and Germany).

Now, there are many populist discourses, at both sides. The Flemish nationalists say that they are giving too much money to Wallonians who are unwilling to work (NV-A once symbolized it by saying that 'every Flamand donates a middle size car to Wallonia every year'). The unitarian, 'Belgicist' side, on the other hand, says that ''50 years ago, Wallonia gave support to Flanders, and now Flanders is just paying them back – it is a matter of solidarity''.

Both discourses are strong, but at this moment, the separatist movement has much more supporters and is definitely considered to be 'mainstream' (whereas, ten years ago, it had a much smaller level of support in the general public opinion).

4. What is your personal opinion? Do you support division of Belgium or „status quo“?

I like the idea of a ''Belgian consensus''. I am not in favour of an independent Flemish state, because the ideological discourse the biggest supporters of Flanders use, are not mine at all. Their tendency is very right wing, both economical and ethical. They like to portray Flanders as a monocultural region, in which everyone is welcome, but on the condition that they adopt a degree of ''Flemishness'' (which is 'assimilation'). I rather like to see the place where I live as an area in which everyone can be him- or herself. I think that the Belgian state has much more to offer in that respect: they bring together many different groups of people who have to work together in some way. They have been doing that pretty well for many years.

5. Filip Dewinter, leader of Flemish nacionalists said in parliament in North Flandern, that it is time for „velvet“ separation in style of Czechoslovakia.
Is this idea still alive?

This idea is still very alive. More and more people (at least in Flanders) now take the standpoint that the separation cannot be avoided if we ever want to get out of the impasse in which we are now. Absolutely nothing is moving in the politics in Belgium now, there is no economic or social policy. These policies are very much needed and many Flamands will consider this more important than the status of country in which they are living (if it is Flanders or Belgium).

6. Is the 'velvet' division of Belgium the only scenario which goes around the political discourse, or are there other scenario's as well?

Of course, many people would like to believe that, when Belgium will split, it will be in a 'velvet' way. Of course, this is possible, but it is not certain. Recently, I read in a German newspaper that they were speaking about the 'balkanisation of Belgium' (which would mean that the splitting up would happen in a very problematic way).
And I believe that many Belgians are still proud of the fact that Belgium has a political system that counts as a global example of solving problems in a good way. When the Cypriot government tried to solve their problems, for example, they asked Belgian politicians to share their experience and knowledge.

7. What is these days „public opinion“ in Belgium?
What about trust of citizens in the new government?

The people have a very low degree of trust in the government. Especially with the recent international financial crisis, it was very clear that the new coalition has no real vision or power on economical policy, and that they are so much preoccupied with institutional reforms in the regions (which has become a very symbolic discussion), that they cannot see the economic problems anymore.
Besides, many people are asking now: ''Do we really need a government at all? They cost much money, they don't function properly, but still the every day life goes on''. The public opinion lost its faith in politics and in the government.

8. Belgium is country, where live two completely different nations, which practically don´t know each other and mutually for yourself often don´t exist.
Do you suppose, that Y.Leterme as Belgian Prime Minister is able to keep together this country?

I believe it is not correct to say that in Belgium, two different nations live together. The problem is much more complicated. Many people don't see themselves as 'Flamand' or as 'Wallonian' – look for example at the situation in Brussels. Many people there see themselves as 'Bruxellois' rather than as something else. Me too, I prefer to consider myself to be 'European', rather than 'Flamand'. It is true that people from the two regions don't know each other, but this is also true for people within the region. For many people in Flanders, even Brussels is considered to be 'far away'.

To answer to your question: I think Yves Leterme has no credibility in Wallonia. For example: one time the Brabançonne (the Belgian national anthem) was sung. He started to sing La Marseillaise (the French national anthem) instead. So he definitely does not have a good picture in Wallonia (and neither does he have a good picture for many people in Flanders, many people think he is not strong enough to solve the problems).

9. I have read one article that Belgians are kept together only by „king“, „footbal team“ and some kinds of „beer“.
Do you share the same opinion?

No, I think much more things keep Belgium connected. In the first place there is Brussels as 'the capital of Europe'. When Belgium would split, Brussels would be a big problem. It is the only big, international city in Belgium. Both Wallonia and Flanders are economically dependent on Brussels (many people go to work there, etc.). Flemish nationalists sometimes think that Brussels will be eager to become a part of Flanders, because it is a stronger region than Wallonia. But I am really convinced that the majority of Brussels' inhabitants will never tolerate this.

10. The next stumbling-block of belgian discussion is bilingual, but mostly francophone Brusel. It is very difficult to say, what would happen with capital city of Brusel which is also the capital of Europe.
Could this „enclave“ lying in Flanders hypotetically once belong to Wallonie?

I think people in Brussels will never tolerate this either (see the answer to question 9). They consider their city to be very 'international'. They don't want to be connected to the 'provincial' mentality of Flanders or Wallonia. The fact that many people in Brussels speak French, does not mean that they feel Wallonian.

Besides, the reality in Brussels is much more difficult. In every day situations, you have a bigger chance to meet people who are speaking English, Turkish, Spanish or Arab. Brussels is really a melting pot where people from all over the world live and work. They don't really care about whether Brussels is a Flemish or a Wallonian city.

11. Jens, do you agree with opinion, that more developed and on services based economy of Flanders is subsidizing Wallonie?

Definitely, some money is going from Flanders to Wallonia. There are often items about this in the news, and no-one opposes them, so there must be a sense of truth, and it is not only Flemish nationalist rhetoric.

But I think that it is only fair to re-divide the money. Flanders is one of the richest regions in the world. Many people now think they are getting poor, because the costs of living are rising. Of course there is a group of poor people who is really having a hard time due to the rising prices, but for many people, the point is that now they are not able anymore to buy a second or even a third car. I believe that it is egoist to cut down the system of subsidizing the Wallonian economy.

And also: the Flemish and Wallonian economy are still very connected. When Wallonia would become more poor, this will definitely also have a bad influence on the Flemish economy.

12. Where live other major communities of immigrants (except of Brussel)?

Immigrants live mainly in the big cities (Antwerp, Ghent, Charleroi...), both in Flanders and in Wallonia. I think there is not a big difference between the two regions.

13. How King Albert II. engaged in the crisis.?
Is he still popular in Belgium?

There are many different opinions about the position of the King. The unitarians now portray the King as a very important symbol in keeping the country together.

Prince Laurent, the youngest son of King Albert II, is infamous for spending much money, living a life of luxury and driving fast cars. The Flemish nationalists like to use this image to put the King and his family in a bad light: ''Do we really need to spend so much of the public money on this family?''

Among the average Belgians, however, many people still have much sympathy for the King. And the King himself, I think he is now in a very difficult position. He can only watch the political debates about abandoning his function. He has no power to stop this process or even to influence it in some way.

14. Thirteen days ago, the life in Belgium was stopped by strike of citizens and unions. What was the position of government to the strike?
And do you think it was only „the beginning“ of protests?

To be honest, on the day of the strike, I was visiting friends in Bratislava. So, I do not really know how this strike worked out, or what was the position of the government towards the strike. But, I am sure this will not be the last strike. Belgian people like to strike every once in a while (just like this is the case in France).

I know that the employees of the public transport companies, for example, joined the strike, but that the employees of banks did not. They said that they realize that now is not the good time to strike, since the banks are in such a weak position. So, I would say that they really are realistic enough to see the bigger picture.

One funny and not so serious question..... :)

15. I heard, that citizens of Belgium are changing eating-habits.
„The reason is fear of world financial crisis“, said belgium TV company RTL.
So,do you think, that financial crise is increasing consumption of cabbage?

I think you are better informed than me, because actually I never really watched RTL. But to answer your question: it is really true that much more people now go shopping in so-called 'discount supermarkets' (such as Aldi and Lidl). People are really watching their expenses: they eat less fresh vegetables and fruit, fresh meat, etc.

16. You are also student of political science and international relations. May I ask you, if you had in school some subjects or discussiom about domestic crisis? Did you write some article about it?

When I was studying as an Erasmus student in Kraków (Poland), I attended a course on the roots of nationalism. I wrote an essay about the roots of the Flemish nationalist movement. That was a very interesting exercise: when I started to read about the 'history of Flanders', it turned out that the Flemish nationalists are now re-writing history. For example: in 1302, there was a battle between the people of some Flemish towns and the 'French invader'. Now, the Flemish nationalists claim that the people were fighting for 'Flemish pride' . But, in 1302, there was nothing like 'Flemish pride'. People were simply fighting for economical power.

But, in the courses I attended in Belgium, I did never really consider the belgian conflicts to be very important. There are much more interesting issues to be studied. If we look at the Belgian problems in an international context, I think we can only conclude that it is a very selfish discourse. People are starving from hunger or killed in wars every day. And our politicians keep discussing about the language which will be the official one in Brussels in the next years.

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